This is "I'm really rich" Forbes on Trump, on Podcast One.
Maggie: And I'm your host, Maggie McGrath. Welcome to the show. In each episode, we're going to dive into the world of Trump through the eyes and ears of Forbes' reporters and editors. We'll look at his wealth, his business associates, and his effect on the economy and business segments around the country. First up on this week's episode is Dan Alexander. He's an associate editor at Forbes who covers Donald Trump and the people around him. Dan, welcome.
Dan: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Maggie: So you recently travelled out to Las Vegas to meet one of President Trump's business partners but also a friend, which is a word that you don't hear often from the people around Donald Trump, it seems like a lot of them fall under the business category and he keeps a tight circle, often with family, so, tell me about this friend, Phil Ruffin.
Dan: Yeah, this is one of Donald Trump's closest friends, you know Donald Trump actually served at the, as the best man at his wedding. Uh, Ruffin told me he didn't give a speech, Ruffin gave the speech, but, uh, he did pay for the wedding. [Maggie laughs] Although, although not for the music. [Maggie laughs] Ah, so, yeah, but they're, they're good friends, and like a lot of Donald Trump's relationships, it seems to cross over, ah you know, friendship, family and also business. So both their wives are incredibly close, you know they're both, both immigrants from Eastern Europe, both of them are former models, ah they're both much younger and much more attractive than their husbands [both laugh]. Um, and so they're really really close but they've also gotten close, ah, by doing what's become a really successful project together in Las Vegas, it's actually the only Trump branded property that Donald Trump has actually invested his own money in, ah, along with somebody else, anywhere in the world. So whenever you hear, you know the Trump Vancouver, the Trump Istanbul, the Trump...you know, all of those are just license deals, this is the only one that's truly a partnership with the Trump name on it where he's put in his own money.
Maggie: So we'll get to that in a second, but let's just take a step back. Who is Phil Ruffin? Do most Americans -- I feel like I know who he is, because I'm in this office, but who is he to the average American, what do they need to know about him?
Dan: Yeah I think that the, the only reason that people would probably know Phil Ruffin is, uh, if they like going to Las Vegas and have stayed at the Treasure Island casino. Uh, Phil Ruffin, you know he's sort of a, a deal maker, you know, he's not a Steve Win type casino guy who's built, you know...a massive complex, you know, of casinos and all of that sort of thing. Instead he sort of traded up across industries over the last half century. He started in gas stations, and then, ah, went down to casinos, and said that he really likes casinos because you never know when somebody's going to come in and blow all their money. [Both laugh]
Maggie: Well and the house always wins, so the odds are in his favor. He also had an interesting deal with, ah, convenience stores, under 1200 square feet he was able to get around some laws, ah, back in the day.
Dan: Yeah, this is one of his early breaks. You know, he had quit a job at a department store where the manager told him that he had to go repossess a monkey, uh, that somebody hadn't paid for. So he was like, "All right, I'm done with this." So he went back home to Wichita, which is where he was from. And he bought a little convenience store, and a couple of years later, he got really lucky, and they passed a law that said that if you were a convenience store that was, uh, 1200 square feet, you couldn't be open on Sunday. And he just happened to be 1100 square feet. And he was a hard worker. And, uh, so he just worked like crazy. And for one out of every seven days, he was the only guy around, or at least the biggest guy around, who still had groceries. And so he was able to make it a really successful business and then he expanded from there, putting the gas stations, casinos, hotels, all around.
Maggie: That's a big deal, I feel like I do all my shopping on Sunday.
Dan: Yeah, right.
Maggie: So how did he and Donald Trump first meet?
Dan: Well so they met, uh, originally they were trying to do, Bill Ruffian had bought an old casino-which was actually next to where the current hotel is. And he was thinking about hooking up a hotel onto that casino, um, and so he went up to Trump Tower, and he went up there and says there were a lot of people waiting for Donald Trump, and his desk was very messy, and so he was very impressed by the whole experience And uh, they clearly struck a bond, but at that time not any sort of business partnership, they kept on chatting and several years later Trump came out to Las Vegas and they went out to dinner with their wives, and afterwards, you know I suppose as billionaires do after dinner their little treat was to go out and check some property. So uh, they went out to an empty piece of land; part of that old property that he had originally owned and he said wouldn't this be great to build something here. And Trump took one look at it and he said uh, yes, lets do it. And so the two of them partnered up, now this was right in the mid-2000's so it was pretty bad timing actually to do it. The project initially ran into a lot of trouble, but they uh, fought for it, and made it work in the end.
Dan: If you look at a lot of other projects in Vegas at that time, that were started then, they weren't as successful as this one has been.
Maggie: I think Ruffin talked about that in his speech at the RNC last summer. He talked about how much money he and now President Trump put into the property.
[clip of Ruffin(?) speaking]
Ruffin: What do you do - we had 500 million dollars in debt! What do you do? Donald does not give up. He said "Let's go forward with this project. We'll put the money in. We will make the damn thing work." And he did! By the way we put in 30 million a piece in 4 years.
[end clip]
Dan: Yeah, you know it's interesting I think a lot of people think about Donald Trump as just a guy who, you know, spends other people's money and, um, isn't willing to, to invest anything. And this is really a story that goes against that in some ways, uh, they were at the bottom of the recession. They got on the phone with the bankruptcy lawyer, who was one of Donald's guys, and he said "You guys have to declare bankruptcy on this thing. I mean, the loss that you could take and the amount of tax money that you could save if you did would be enormous." And Donald said "No no no, this is not Atlantic City. This is Las Vegas, it's gonna come back." And so every single month for a few years they wired in money, both of 'em. And there was never any problem with Donald's money not coming in or with Ruffin's money not coming in, and it kept the thing afloat. And, you know, after a few years it proved to be right and it did come back. And now it's worth more money than they put into it. And they've, that's the, just the part that they still have left is worth more money than they put into it, and they've already sold about 900 condos out of it. So, it's proved to be a really successful project in the end, although, there for a few years it looked pretty dicey.
[Maggie] What do you think the whole episode says about President Trump and his deal-making? Is it that he trusts his friends? Is it that he takes risks? Is it all of the above?
[Dan] I think that there are a lot of different ways to look at it, but I think that my take-away was: Donald Trump is a lot more complicated than most people think. And, that's both people who support him and think that he's - you know, this, you know, got this Midas touch and everything that he touches turns into gold and, you know, he's an extraordinary businessman, and also people who detest him and think that, you know, that he's not willing to invest any real money, that he doesn't have any business talent. What happened in Vegas goes directly against what happened in Atlantic City, which has gotten a lot more press, and I think that when you zoom in on Donald Trump in any facet of his life, you just find that, uh, once you think you have him figured out, keep reading 'cause you probably don't. [laughter]
[Maggie] So what does Ruffin want to do next with, um, the Trump organization (I - we need to separate the two now) what's he looking forward to now that his friend is in the Oval Office?
[Dan] Yeah, so, it's interesting, you know, uh, Ruffin, like a lot of the partners around the world, says the Trump brand now is stronger than it's ever been. And Ruffin still has a small slice of property left over from those old casino days when he had the property originally, and he's sort of envisioning the reverse plan of what he first proposed to Donald Trump in Trump Tower. So, now he owns a hotel, uh, does not own a casino right next to it, and he envisions building a casino to latch onto it: the reverse of owning the casino and envisioning building a Trump Hotel.
And, you know, I talked with Eric Trump about this and I said, you know, what do you think of the idea? And I sort of expected him to back off and, you know, get sort of skittish about it or something like that, and he was like, "Yeah. Sounds great, you know, I love Phil Ruffin. I would do anything with him." And, you know, I asked "Well, does the fact that your father's now the President - would that prohibit you guys getting into the Casino industry, you know, probably the most highly-regulated industry of any industry in the world?" And he said No. Uh, you know, he thinks that they can - can go ahead with this. So, um, it's still very, very early, you know, they - they do have the area zoned for a casino already, um, and they've been doing some strategic things to make sure that they can build one there. But, you know, it's not like their shovel's in the ground or anything like that, and with a lot of construction projects, things can fall apart in different stages, so we'll see if this one actually pans out, but it's interesting just that they're interested - that they're both into it.
[Maggie] What do you think the whole episode says about President Trump and his deal-making? Is it that he trusts his friends? Is it that he takes risks? Is it all of the above?
[Dan] I think that there are a lot of different ways to look at it, but I think that my take-away was: Donald Trump is a lot more complicated than most people think. And, that's both people who support him and think that he's - you know, this, you know, got this Midas touch and everything that he touches turns into gold and, you know, he's an extraordinary businessman, and also people who detest him and think that, you know, that he's not willing to invest any real money, that he doesn't have any business talent. What happened in Vegas goes directly against what happened in Atlantic City, which has gotten a lot more press, and I think that when you zoom in on Donald Trump in any facet of his life, you just find that, uh, once you think you have him figured out, keep reading 'cause you probably don't. [laughter]
[Maggie] So what does Ruffin want to do next with, um, the Trump organization (I - we need to separate the two now) what's he looking forward to now that his friend is in the Oval Office?
[Dan] Yeah, so, it's interesting, you know, uh, Ruffin, like a lot of the partners around the world, says the Trump brand now is stronger than it's ever been. And Ruffin still has a small slice of property left over from those old casino days when he had the property originally, and he's sort of envisioning the reverse plan of what he first proposed to Donald Trump in Trump Tower. So, now he owns a hotel, uh, does not own a casino right next to it, and he envisions building a casino to latch onto it: the reverse of owning the casino and envisioning building a Trump Hotel.
And, you know, I talked with Eric Trump about this and I said, you know, what do you think of the idea? And I sort of expected him to back off and, you know, get sort of skittish about it or something like that, and he was like, "Yeah. Sounds great, you know, I love Phil Ruffin. I would do anything with him." And, you know, I asked "Well, does the fact that your father's now the President - would that prohibit you guys getting into the Casino industry, you know, probably the most highly-regulated industry of any industry in the world?" And he said No. Uh, you know, he thinks that they can - can go ahead with this. So, um, it's still very, very early, you know, they - they do have the area zoned for a casino already, um, and they've been doing some strategic things to make sure that they can build one there. But, you know, it's not like their shovel's in the ground or anything like that, and with a lot of construction projects, things can fall apart in different stages, so we'll see if this one actually pans out, but it's interesting just that they're interested - that they're both into it.
