This is NDTV, and you're watching Classics.
Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. I'm Shekhar Gupta. Today my guest is an unusual holy man. He's a holy man whose appeal cuts across all kinds of boundaries: of region, of religion, of caste and creed, even nations and continents. But what also makes him unusual is the fact that he says unusual things. Where holy men now acquired a reputation for dividing people, for preaching distance, for preaching division, here is somebody who talks about reconciliation, who talks about solutions.
People come to him for answers to their own spiritual, uh, problems, and solutions and doubts but now he's also been talking about solving some of our major political problems. For example: the [names in another language...], he's been talking about it. He's even met the prime minister of [not sure]. He has many, many ideas. Not just ["among the Muslims" I think] but generally on how to bring the community [of] people together. To talk more about this, I am now joined by, who else, but by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.
Mr. [Shankar...maybe a different name], you talked about solving the [unclear] problem. Now many people have tried. Polititians have tried. Courts have been wrestling with the problem. [Poly...not sure] people have tried, religious leaders have tried...liberals...everybody has given it a shot. What makes you think that this particular formula might work? If you could also talk about your formula a little bit.
You know you have to keep trying until you succeed. You have to keep on finding new ways 'cause as time changes strategy is allowed to change also.
But if I understand your formula correctly it actually implies that first of all the Hindus apologize to the Muslims for destroying the Mosque and in return, uh, the Muslims give over the land and give up all the claim on the site in favour of the Hindus.
Yeah, uh. It's quite natural for the civilized person to say I'm sorry you are hurt by any of my deeds or words. You know, asking for an apology is not anything that could take anyone's self esteem. In fact, it enhances one's self esteem. At the same time, there is a give and take in what the community can do.
But if it... is a give and take spirit possible? There's been so much distance, so much bitterness, riots, you know destruction of an old mosque, you know uh, anger after that, it's now become such a big political issue you know among the Hindus as wells as the Muslims, and particularly people who lead who lead the movement, uh, for the construction of the temple and before that, the destruction of the mosque, you really think they'll come forward and apologize? You know, this has to come from both sides, see from... this country has suffered a lot from the beginning, for many years now, before under ...... and then after Mughals and then after you know, from our own caste and creed divisions.
So we have to you now find our, found out a solution where we bring people together and cold is not going to bring people together at all, so we need to...
... why do you say so, because we've been backing causes for a long time now?
and cold whoever wins is really a loser
how do you say so?
because, you know, you've been in the cold, but you lose the goodwill of the other community. Even is something is left, that will also be lost. But if you give the place to the Hindus
But if you give the place to the Hindus, and then the Hindus come closer to Muslims, so then there is a tremendous goodwill that can be generated between the communities.
So, what you think is that if you, this issue that is dividing people could actually bring them together?
Bring them together, if you do an out-of-court settlement.
And you see, an out-of-court settlement, I don't know, because, because the reason the government has thrown this in there, in the Supreme Court, is simply that nobody has the courage to handle this, and nobody wants to face this issue head-on, so might as well leave it to the courts, the courts take there own sweet time in India. And maybe they will decide, maybe they will not decide. But, really, you know unless there is religious leadership on both sides, or political leadership, that sits down and talks, how can such a solution be presented? Who's gonna tell Hindu organizations that this is the way to go? Who's gonna talk to the Muslims and say, look, if the Hindus actually came up with this, settle with them. You know, this will have long term benefits for you.
It has to be collective effort, it cannot be an overnight thing, you know...
But people start thinking and talking these terms of truth and reconciliation; coming together and, you know, not just going on with theories and philosophies, which are not so practical to dislike. You know, as times are changing, and I think people have to revise these strategies.
You talk about what is practical, and what is modern, and what is plausible, and what is pragmatic....
Gupta: We are standing in [Rishikesh?] on the banks of [Uganga?]. You know, people don't come here with ideas that are practical, or plausible, or which are modern, or, you know, people come to these parks out of sheer faith. They don't understand history, they don't understand archaeology, they don't talk about what today is best and what's good for tomorrow. They come here because they inherited something in the past, and they treat that--
Shankar: Faith, faith, faith, yeah...
Gupta: --and they treat that past and carry on.
Shankar: And you know faith is not opposed to pragmatism. Faith is not opposed to science at all. Faith very well goes with other scientific temperament, as well. In fact, there are what I would call as, uh, the scientific dogmas, sometimes. (laughs)
Gupta: But how can you says so in times when, you know, people confuse faith not just with history, but also with science?
Shankar: Well that's why I'm saying that one has to keep learning--should not stop learning--
Gupta: --but how do you ensure that, when people say "Look: This is history because I believe it." People said something happened on the banks of this river a million years ago.
Shankar: Yeah.
Gupta: Now if an archeaologist or historian went out and tell you "nothing happened here a million years ago," but you don't want to believe it because it's your faith. And now we have a situation where people are confusing faith with science.
Interviewer: "...But every other saint will be a Hindu saint"
Shankar: "No. The saint is Hindu saints but we do accept saints from all other religions. You go to any, there'll be a picture of Jesus, there'll be a place for Koran, there'll be you know... many ashrams today. They... they talk about one... you know [Nahal Win Va (unintelligible)]. So this concept of [Dasuday Wa Kutumba Kum (unintelligible)] has been in this country..."
Interviewer: "...[Dasuday Wa Kutumba Kum] is 'all the world is a family'"
Shankar: "is a family."
Interviewer: "That's now (?) become a slogan. Everybody talks about it, who practices it?"
Shankar: "I think we need not lose that hope, because it's already in out genes, in our whole being. Here, we are doing it. People are realising it everywhere else in the world also. There is more interfaith dialogues all over the world. Everywhere you go, interfaith, intercultural dialogues are happening."
